Prabhupada: ...perception. That is experience. Why do you give on seeing only? By seeing one mango you cannot understand what quality it is, but you have to touch with your tongue. Therefore in chemical laboratory the characteristics are there: "This is the color. This is the taste. This is the reaction." So you have to gather experience like that, not by simply seeing. That... I gave the example. Now you take one egg. What is there? Some white and some yellow substance. So you make one egg with white and yellow and bring life. So what is the power of your seeing? A small egg. Take a small egg. The covering, some celluloid, within, some white substance, some yellow substance. Or make further analysis and give some chemicals of the same taste, same color, same characteristic -- now bring life. But the same thing. You put under the feather of the chicken. Within five days it will bring life. So what is the credit of these rascal doctors, D.H.C.? That a small chicken is better than these D.H.C. Why don't you see practically?Gargamuni: The chicken is simply sitting, and he is...Prabhupada: He is bringing life. What is the answer of these rascal scientists?Satsvarupa: No good answer. Bluff.Prabhupada: Challenge them like this, that "First of all do it. You are less than the chicken. Why you are claiming so much honor? We treat you, you are fig. You are less important than the chicken. Prove that you have got some power; then claim that you are scientist." Hm? Is that argument all right? What will be the counterargument?Gurukrpa: A sane man would accept.Prabhupada: They're all rascals. They do not know anything; still, they are claiming very high position.Gurukrpa: I heard one scientist on the airplane. There were three scientists sitting behind me, and they were speaking that they hope they are living in the year 2000. One man said, "I become so excited when I think how advanced we will be in the year 2000 that I just hope I do not die before then 'cause I want to see how everything will be then."Satsvarupa: By then they think they will be doing this, creating life.Prabhupada: That any insane man can say. Any crazy man can say. "Trust no future, however pleasant." "You are rascal. You are believing in the future. You have not show us, because in the past you could not do. There is no history. In the present you cannot do. So how shall I believe that in future you'll do?" So any rascal promises like that, so we take him as a rascal. That's all.Satsvarupa: What about our promise, in the future also, that you go to Krsna in the future?Prabhupada: We have got proof. Krsna says. We believe in Krsna. You believe in some rascal; we believe in Krsna. That is the difference. Krsna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. So we believe that. That's all. We have got evidence. You have no evidence. You are simply suggesting in future you'll do. But we have got evidence.Gargamuni: Sometimes they ask, "Show us somebody who's come."Prabhupada: Hm?Gargamuni: "Show us someone who has come from there."Prabhupada: Many.Gargamuni: "But we don't find any."Prabhupada: Many. It is in the sastra. "He was formerly like this, and now he has become this." There are many.Gargamuni: Well, that's in the sastra. They say now we want...Prabhupada: But sastra is the proof. Our proof is sastra. Your proof is your sastra. Did you go to the moon planet or you believe the newspapers? Have you gone?Gargamuni: No.Prabhupada: Then if you can believe newspaper, why shall not believe in the Veda, Vedanta?Gargamuni: No, but one man has come.Prabhupada: So one man... You have not done. You have no experience. So one man you believe authority.Gurukrpa: But we saw the television. They showed on the television.Prabhupada: No. Television could not show that. You can arrange in the laboratory such television, cheat others. And you have done it. But anyway, television or man or newspaper -- you believe on others. You have not personally gone. So you believe some authority. We believe some authority. What is the difference. You take newspaper as authority. We take Vedic literature as authority. Where is the difference? You have personally not gone. How do you believe? The difference is that you believe somebody, we believe somebody. I asked this question to Professor Kotovsky, that "You believe Lenin; we believe Krsna. Then where is the difference between philosophy?" Now it is to be judged whether Lenin is all right or Krsna is all right. That is another thing. But the principle is there. "You believe in Lenin; we believe in Krsna. The process is the same. So where is your improvement?"Satsvarupa: They say that theirs can be shown not just to a disciple but to the whole world in general, not just...Prabhupada: Nobody believes in Lenin. Then there would have been everyone Communist. You believe, a section. Then why there are two parties? You are not all in all. That is going on everywhere. How you can say that you are correct, I am not correct? The process is the same. Therefore Vivekananda has compromised, "Everyone is correct." Yato mata tato patha. There is no quarrel.Gurukrpa: Then they accuse us of being fanatical.Prabhupada: You are also fanatical. Why do you believe Lenin? You are fanatical in our eyes. You are worse than fanatical because we have got great other authorities -- they believe Krsna is God. You have created a section recently, but we have got evidences from thousands and thousands of years ago, authorities believing Krsna. Our literatures are very old. Your literature recently made.Gargamuni: Sometimes, though, they may agree philosophically about Krsna, but then they will bring in Krsna's controversial personal life. They always do this.Prabhupada: Personal life?Gargamuni: They bring in about, always about the gopis and Krsna.Gurukrpa: They just did that recently in Honolulu.Gargamuni: Philosophically they may agree. But then they will go and attack Krsna's...Gurukrpa: Character.Gargamuni: His character.Prabhupada: But that... Because...Gargamuni: Even in India they do. They say, "Rama, He was better."Prabhupada: But what do you know about Rama and Krsna? You do not know anything. You are not a devotee. You have to learn the science. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati [Bg. 7.3]. You are ordinary man. You cannot understand. Then one can criticize his father and mother also, that "My fa..." They do. Some rascal do that. Kim anyat kama-haitukam. "My father has done harm to me. By lusty desire he gave me birth, and I am suffering." They say like that. So you can in that way, you criticize your father and mother. But that is not law. Law is father and mother should be respected. But you rascal, you can criticize your father. You are such a rascal.Gargamuni: 'Cause in India that happens a lot. Especially...Prabhupada: No, then father, mother, should not be respected, because they indulged in sexual life and brought me into existence and I am suffering. Then there should be no respect of father and mother. And then this sex life should be stopped, and there is no need of big, big scientist, philosopher. Because this indulgence will bring so many big men, so it should be stopped. But Krsna is the father. Why He should not have sex? Any father has got sex. So if you criticize Krsna, then you must criticize your father first. But that is not the law of nature nor the law of the society. Law is different. Who will criticize his father? Any sane man? Will any sane man do that? So you are insane. So who is caring for your remark? You are insane.Hari-sauri: They're just envious of Krsna, anyway. They're envious because they want to enjoy.Prabhupada: That is the cause, that they're criticizing. They're envious.Gargamuni: Oh, yes.Prabhupada: That's all. The envious man can say anything.Gargamuni: That I notice when they say that. I can notice their envy.Prabhupada: But still Krsna is being worshiped. Here is Jagannatha, Krsna. Millions of people have come to worship. You are rascal. You may criticize. It doesn't affect Krsna's respectful position.Gargamuni: Caitanya Mahaprabhu, although Krsna's life may have been controversial, still, He was very strict sannyasi.Prabhupada: He never criticized Krsna. Rather, He was enjoying Krsna's love with gopis.Gurukrpa: Ramya kascid upasana varga...(?)Prabhupada: So we have to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu, not you.Satsvarupa: And Sukadeva Gosvami.Prabhupada: Yes. You do not know what is Krsna. That is the... Krsna must have everything. Otherwise how He is God? God's definition is that everything is emanating from Krsna. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. He's God, the original source of anything. Anything and everything. Then He's God. So if sex life is not in Krsna, then wherefrom it comes? Does it drop from the sky? You rascal, you do not know the science.Hari-sauri: And with Krsna's sex there's no inebrieties.Prabhupada: Hm?Hari-sauri: When Krsna has sex life there's no inebrieties. There's no abortion and contraception. With his sex life there's so many bad things.Prabhupada: No, first of all, wherefrom the sex life comes if it is not in God? You make God impotent. But we do not make. Why He should be impotent? Then He's imperfect. If He's not potent, then He's imperfect, and God is all-perfect.Satsvarupa: They take it that this is an example of anthropomorphic, that we are saying...Prabhupada: Whatever it may be.Satsvarupa: "God has sex."Prabhupada: They are luscious(?) that... [break] Just like a tuberculosis patient. To him doctor says that "You don't have sex life. That will bring your death." Does it mean sex life is bad? The tuberculosis person, for him it is bad, not for the sane man, not for the healthy man. So when sex life is advised to..., forbidden, that is for the diseased condition. But who is never diseased -- he is perfect -- for him there is no forbidding of sex life. So you do not understand that in this material condition you are suffering only. You have no brain. Therefore morality, immorality, good, bad, there are so many things. But when one is perfect, healthy, for him all the activities of life is perfect. Just like a physician advised me, "You don't take salt." Does it mean salt is bad? I am in a particular condition of this kidney trouble or liver trouble. For me salt is bad. But does it mean salt bad?Gurukrpa: No. It's very good.Prabhupada: Similarly, sex life for you is bad, not for Krsna. You are thinking Krsna like you, mudha.Gargamuni: Yes. They try to equate themselves.Gurukrpa: Sex-mongerPrabhupada: Yes. You are taking Krsna on your level. You are such a rascal. You do not know Krsna. Therefore Krsna says, manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddh... [Bg. 7.3], yatatam api siddhanam kascid. You do not know what is Krsna. You are taking Him on your level. Therefore you are trying to criticize Him. You do not know what is Krsna. That is your ignorance. What is food for one is poison for others. So for you it is poison, not for Krsna. Krsna is God. He has everything. He can use everything. That is God. He is not restricted by anyone. Mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. Who can restrict Him? Then He's not God. If by a third-class man like you He's restricted of His sex life, then He's not God. He becomes under your control. But Krsna is isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. He's the supreme controller. How He can be controlled by your so-called goodness and badness? So the conclusion is you do not know Krsna. You want to bring Krsna in your level of understanding, and that is your foolishness. So we don't care for the fools like you. This is our conclusion. Avajananti... That is replied. Avajananti mam mudhah: [Bg. 9.11] "Rascals, fools, they criticize Me, thinks Me that I am as good as human being." Manusim janma. Param bhavam ajanantah: "The rascals do not know what is My actual position." So you have to preach in that way.Gargamuni: I have found sometimes when going to the offices that these people, these businessmen in India, they have become so offensive because they always try to attack Krsna's activities more than anybody else.Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise where is the need of preaching? If you expect everyone is in favor of Krsna, then where is the need of pushing on Krsna consciousness?Gargamuni: In the West we can discuss philosophy with people. They never try to attack Krsna's...Gurukrpa: Now they are attacking, because they have gotten your books. (Prabhupada laughs) Even the Christians, they have read your books. And they are saying, "Well, Krsna did this. Krsna did that."Prabhupada: He must do it because He's God. You do not... You have no conception. You explain that if there is no such things, then wherefrom it has come? God is the origin. In the Bible also it is said, "God said 'Let there be creation.' " So in the creation there are so many things. So therefore everything comes from God. That is Vedanta philosophy. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. So why do you say, "Your God is like this"? God has everything. Otherwise how He's God? There is no meaning of God if He is deficient in something. But you do not know.Satsvarupa: They say He should be exemplary. God should be exemplary.Prabhupada: No. God is not bound to prove His example character to you. You are a rascal.Satsvarupa: Then how will I know what to follow?Prabhupada: You learn! You come to me. I'll teach you and beat you with shoes and teach you. (laughter) Come to me. Why I am here? You come! I shall beat you with shoes and teach you. Then you'll learn. You require some beating with shoes. You are a bad student. So I'll do that. "Come on." Yes, I keep always my shoes for my bad students.Gurukrpa: You can beat me, Srila Prabhupada. I'd like that.Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. A student who is more chastised is advanced. Guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasana [Cc. Adi 7.71]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "My spiritual master saw Me a grand fool. Therefore he has chastised Me." That is the position. The more we remain a grand fool, then more we may advance in spiritual consciousness. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says. Guru more murkha dekhi' karila sasana. He was murkha?Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, one thing they're doing against us more and more in the West is taking the testimony of an ex-disciple of yours, and he will say, "I was a Hare Krsna..."Prabhupada: "Because he is rascal, therefore he's 'ex,' excommunicated. My Guru Maharaja kicked him out, so what is the value of his word?"Gargamuni: We can say these men were excommunicated.Prabhupada: Ex means he's executed. That's all. He's finished.Satsvarupa: Why listen to his testimony? We can say, "Why listen to his testimony?"Prabhupada: Yes. Why not take our testimony? We are... Now take.Gargamuni: Even in the church they do that. If some priest is not following or introduces something new, they are excommunicated. So we have excommunicated him. Why he should be listened to?Prabhupada: He's no more in this.Gargamuni: That's legal. In the church they do that. Why we cannot do?Prabhupada: That is natural. Somebody will go out and speak against us.Satsvarupa: The demons are very eager to hear. "Oh, tell us what they did to you."Prabhupada: (laughs) "That is not your business. You better ask because you have taken him as authority. You have already taken him as authority, the excommunicated member. So you ask him." These things will happen. In preaching, you cannot expect very smooth path going. Otherwise what is the use of preaching?Hari-sauri: That's been going on for a long time.Prabhupada: Yes, yes.Hari-sauri: Even their own religion started like that. Jesus's..., one of his best disciples turned him in.Gurukrpa: Actually they are helping us to become Krsna conscious by giving us an opportunity to preach about Krsna.Gargamuni: It makes us serve with great..., more enthusiasm, even the demons.Prabhupada: That is the way of electricity. Electricity. Some thunder. That is electricity. The word is used, apratihata. Pratihata means checking. When your devotional service will make progress in spite of checking, that is pure devotion. Ahaituky apratihata yayatma suprasidati. And that is pure devotion. I was attacked by heart attack thrice. While on the ship, twice.Gargamuni: On the ship twice? Oh.Prabhupada: Consecutively two days, attack. Actually I would have died on the ship before reaching your country. I could not understand that was heart attack. The pain was so severe, I thought, "I am now dying." And it was done two nights. And I was very much afraid whether on the third night, that "If this night also again some pain like that comes, then I'll die." But third night did not pain. It was suspended. It came in New York. And you know it, left side was paralyzed.Gargamuni: Yes. Left side. We had to massage constantly.Prabhupada: No, they were arranging for some operation.Gargamuni: Yes. Those doctors.Prabhupada: I told Kirtanananda, "Give me massage."Gargamuni: I can remember. I wheeled you down for test.Prabhupada: The heart was also very painful still.Gargamuni: They wanted to take some blood, and I had to stop them.Prabhupada: They were examining my brain. Then I thought, "I must go away." I told, "Doctor, I am all right. I can go."Gargamuni: They wanted to do so many tests. They wanted to take also from spine.Prabhupada: Yes.Satsvarupa: They did that. They did give you that spine needle.Prabhupada: Oh. Never call doctor. Never give me hospital. Let me die peacefully if I am in trouble.Gargamuni: Tirtha Maharaja had many doctors.Prabhupada: He has suffered too much. When I was in Los Angeles after coming back from India, in that black quarter, do you remember? No.Gargamuni: Black order?Prabhupada: Black quarter.Gargamuni: Oh. That was on West Pico Boulevard? That storefront?Prabhupada: Our temple was...Gargamuni: West Pico Boulevard, right. I know that place. Yes. I was there. Yes, right, when you came back.Prabhupada: Before our La Cienega...Gargamuni: Yes. It was in the black quarter. I can remember.Prabhupada: I was continuing my disease up to there.Gargamuni: And you had one house near?Prabhupada: Many houses. I was not sleeping at night, and there was some sound, "gongongongon," in my ear. So long the body will be there, there will be so many troubles. And Krsna has advised that "They will come and go. Don't care for them. That's all." Agamapayino 'nityas tams titiksasva bharata.matra-sparsas tu kaunteyasitosna-sukha-duhkha-dahagamapayino 'nityastams titiksasva bharata[Bg. 2.14]So bodily, mental, by enemies, so many impediments will come. What can be done? We have to tolerate. That is material world. We cannot expect smooth, very happy. That is not possible. Krsna advising Arjuna, what to speak of us. What we are in comparison to Arjuna. He's His personal friend, talking with Him. He said, tams titiksasva. Krsna never said, "I have made some magic. You'll have no failure," like that. Tams titiksasva. "You just try to tolerate." That's all. He never gave him any tablet. (chuckling) He taught that... So we have to do that. As the modern gurus says that "I'll give you some ash. There will be no trouble," Krsna did He so? He said, "No, tolerate." That's all. He could have said, "I'll give you some ash." "You are ass; I'll give you some ash." (laughter) Neither Arjuna asked also, that "Why You are asking me to fight? Give me some ash. I'll throw." He was not such a fool that he asked some magic from Krsna and kill his enemies. Actually he fought. This is Bhagavad-gita. So face things as they are and depend on Krsna. That is our duty. We must go on with our duty. Don't expect any ash, miracle, magic. So what is...? You have got sleeping place?Gargamuni: Well, we have the beach. No, we have two rooms. Until seven o'clock in the morning we can use these two rooms. So our men can stay. Some will sleep in the van. I will sleep in the van.Prabhupada: In some car? In the car? In the car? In my car?Gargamuni: No, no. No one is sleeping there.Prabhupada: No, no. Then why not sleep, someone, some two?Gargamuni: No, it's not very... It's not long enough. We are big.Gurukrpa: We have enough place without.Gargamuni: In the summer here we park... You know where I took you on the other side? We brought our vans there and we slept right on the sand. Very nice.Prabhupada: Beach. Very nice. Summer it is nice.Gargamuni: Nice breeze all night.Prabhupada: Very nice sleep.Gargamuni: Yes. Fresh. Right? You were there.Gurukrpa: Yes. I was there.Devotee: We slept outside, under the stars. We cooked out there. We cooked outside.Prabhupada: In villages eighty percent, ninety percent people, they sleep outside during summer.Gargamuni: But here there's no... There was no mosquitoes.Prabhupada: Because the wind is strong.Gargamuni: Yes. Very strong. And just a light cadara. A light cadara and that's all.Prabhupada: Yes. In village also. In summer, night is rather pleasant.Gargamuni: Yes. Because there is breeze. Chandigarh we were there and Saharanpur. We were sleeping...Prabhupada: You can sleep very comfortably in summer. And in the morning you'll feel fresh, refreshed, complete.Gurukrpa: I am sleeping comfortable any place.Prabhupada: Yes, that depends on practice.Gurukrpa: An expert in sleep.Prabhupada: Anything. Sarira na mahasaya, ya saha mithaya saha (?) There is a Bengali proverb that the body is very nice. If you practice something, it will tolerate. Jaya. (devotees offer obeisances) [break] And whatever plan he's making, it will be all frustrated. That is the whole history. Big, big emperor, big, big politicians, they have tried. Roman Empire, the Carthagian Empire, Greece Empire, Egyptian Empire, and Mogul Empire, British Empire -- all frustrated. It will never be successful. For a few days, hundred, two hundred years or five hundred years, it may go on. So real plan is how to become Krsna conscious. Then everything is successful. Ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. These rascals, on account of false prestigious position, trying to be happy without God... That is not possible. Throughout the history you study. So many rascals have tried. The Napoleon, the Hitler, the Gandhi, this, that. What they have achieved? Nothing. If we honestly study their lives and activities, what they have achieved? Hm? Do you think they have achieved anything?Satsvarupa: No.Prabhupada: They simply wasted their time. Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. Simply wasting time. Therefore this is the best service, to revive Krsna consciousness for the human society and send them back home, back to Godhead. This is the best service.Gargamuni: And if anybody helps us, then he is also greatly benefited.Prabhupada: He is also... He becomes recognized by the master. "Oh, he is trying for this, what I want." Naturally he becomes immediately recognized, although he has no qualification. If he tries. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Krsna has said." Just see how simplified. Don't talk anything nonsense. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-bas. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child. (laughs) Our Syamasundara's daughter. She was preaching, "Do you know Krsna?" They said, "No I have got no..." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching, simply if you say that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality, supreme controller. Just be obedient to Him." Where is the difficulty? Anyone can preach. Chant Hare Krsna. Bas. Three words: Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead; surrender unto Him; and chant Hare Krsna. Your life will be successful. What is the difficulty in preaching these three words? Hm? Is there any difficulty? Even a child like Sarasvati, she can preach. Then what to speak of others? Those who are educated, grown-up, advanced, they can put the matter more nicely, more convincingly, more philosophically. That is another thing. But these three words, that "Krsna is the Supreme Lord; you are servant; and chant Hare Krsna" -- bas, preaching complete. Very simple thing and the sublime instruction. Everyone can become guru by simply teaching these three words. Not sophisticated, but he must also understand not blindly. Bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara, janma sarthaka kari [Cc. Adi 9.41]'. He must also understand these three words perfectly. Then wherever he speaks, he'll be successful. Not that "For you I am speaking. I can do everything independently." No. I am also servant of Krsna. Realized. This is realization.Satsvarupa: How does a preacher realize? How does a preacher come to realize?Prabhupada: He must know that he's servant.Satsvarupa: By hearing.Prabhupada: By practically knowing he's a... Are you independent, anyone? Everyone is servant. He's serving his senses. That's all. He's servant. He's never master. But he has become the servant of maya or senses. That's all. He has to change only; instead of becoming servant of maya, be servant of Krsna. Servant he is. Where he'll go? How he will become master? To remain a servant is his position. He cannot become master. That is false pride. As soon as he wants to be master, that is false pride. That is maya. "So if I am servant, then I have to serve. So why shall I serve the senses' dictation? I will serve Krsna, what He says." So he's self-realized immediately, within a second. Where is the difficulty to become self-realized? Hm? Is there any difficulty? He must know that "I am serving. I am never master. But serving the senses, that's all, whims of the senses in the name of independence." That is not possible. Very simple philosophy. One who understands, he's self-realized. And if he preaches, then he becomes recognized. On this principle we shall help everyone. "Come here. Stay with us nicely. Nicely you can. But serve Krsna. We take responsibility." Organize in this way throughout the whole world. Give them shelter; give them food; give them cloth. That is the most benevolent welfare activity in the human society. So here people have generally tendency to come to the beach to enjoy. "All right, we shall give you a place. Come on. Stay here. You haven't got to pay anything for food or lodging. Simply attend arati, classes. Then... For experiment, three days' period, you see."Gargamuni: Anyone.Prabhupada: Anyone.Satsvarupa: Even those three days they have to attend the mangala-arati?Prabhupada: Yes. Mangala-arati they must attend. It is not that sleeping, "gongongon," and taking free food, no.Gargamuni: No. Even in Mayapura we wake them up at four.Prabhupada: Yes, that must be. Why Mayapura? Vrndavana, they are accustomed. Ya devi sarva-bhutesu nidra... This sleeping is the maya's influence. It is stated in the... Ya devi sarva-bhutesu nidra-rupena samsthitah.(?) The Devi, this material energy, has captured everyone, and she is there... The more one sleeps, that means he's under the control of maya. And the more he is not sleeping, he's free from maya. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. The Gosvamis, they conquered over three things: nidra, sleeping; ahara, eating; and mating. These things are the clutches of maya. More we have sex, more we have eating, more we have sleeping, that means I am entangled. The more we conquer over it, we are free. That we have to try. Whether I am in the clutches of maya or not can be tested -- whether I am sleeping more, whether I am eating more, whether I am more sexually inclined. He can test himself. And bhakti means vairagya-vidya, to conquer over these three things. So practice this. They are... To rise early in the morning and attend mangala-arati is compulsory. It is part of this education, spiritual education. And not to eat more than necessary. Then you'll not sleep more. You'll find, if you observe fast, you won't feel sleepy. Have you tested this?Gargamuni: Yes. I can remember.Prabhupada: Therefore ekadasi. One day or two days in the month he should practice fasting, and then he'll be able to conquer over these things. These are all practical. So we should practice ourself and teach others. This is Krsna consciousness movement. And if he thinks that he's quite all right in this material atmosphere, then he's doomed. Mudhah nabhijanati. That means aprapya mam -- without achieving Krsna -- nivartante -- again he goes back-mrtyu-samsara-vartmani [Bg. 9.3] -- the cycle of birth and death. Take one birth, suffer, again take another body, again take another body, another body. There are 400..., eight million four hundred... That's all. Sometimes so-called happiness, he is born as demigod, sometimes as dog, sometimes as insect, sometimes as tree. What is this business? "I am eternal. Why shall I suffer this?" This is sense. They are simply trying how to become a hog, how to become a dog, or how to become a god. God you cannot become. You may have some partial happiness just like the demigods. They have got power. They have got high standard of living. But that does not mean the solution of the problem. Solution of problem means no more birth, no more death. That is solution. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is solution. And if he remains in the birth-and-death cycle, that is not solution of material problem. Who can understand this science? They have accepted birth and death. But birth they do not believe. They think accidentally it grows within the womb, a lump of matter, and at a certain stage there is life. This is their... Do they not think like that?Satsvarupa: Oh, yes.Prabhupada: Fetus. By sex there is some reaction of flesh and blood and something comes out.Gargamuni: Chemical reaction.Prabhupada: So poor fund of knowledge. Accident? Kim anyat kama-haitukam. "A man and woman becomes lusty, they have sex, and it, the body, the form, comes out. So you can cut it and then eat it." Very horrible condition of the human civilization. It is the only institution throughout the whole world who are trying to deliver people from this ignorance. We are the only. All bogus. They do not know anything, what is religion, what is happiness, what is spiritual life. Nobody knows. No... But that was covered. Now we are opening religion. The thing was there. It is not our invention, neither we can invent. But it is still unknown, and therefore they are unhappy. Their primary problem, where to live, how to eat, how to cover -- that we shall take charge. Then what is the problem? You have got free boarding, free lodging, free cloth, and so much enlightenment. What do you want more?Satsvarupa: Some people don't like to live in the community.Prabhupada: Eh?Satsvarupa: Some people, they don't want to join...Prabhupada: Community, if you don't, you independently live. But this is the principle.Satsvarupa: Yes. They can do that in their house. They can live in their house and do all that.Prabhupada: Wherever you live, this is the principle.Gargamuni: There are many people who are doing that.Prabhupada: Yes, why not?Gargamuni: They are offering their food, they have...Prabhupada: There is no question. Community means to help one another. If you can help yourself, do it.Satsvarupa: But at least meet with us for training, for classes.Prabhupada: Yes. This is training. Community means I learn from you; you learn from the principles. But if you don't like community, you do it yourself. But this is opportunity. You learn it. Sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. By association of... And we must be sadhus. If we are also dogs and hogs, what they will learn?Gargamuni: Ramesvara told me that in ISKCON mail order there are many people outside who are following. They are offering their food, having kirtanas.Prabhupada: Yes. No, you can accept a suitable situation according to your convenience. There is brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Four orders are there. Whichever is suitable for you, accept. But don't forget the problem and the aim of life. And we don't want men giving some quotation from a book just like these so-called scholars do. He has not gone through the book, but take some suitable passage and note, and then he advertises himself that he has studied so many book. "Bibliography." Is it not? So-called scholar?Satsvarupa: Footnotes, bibliography.Prabhupada: Footnote scholar they are now.Satsvarupa: One professor, I showed him your book. He said, "This is not a scholarly book. It has no footnotes." His definition. Simply looked for the footnotes.Gargamuni: I met one professor in Lucknow University. For his own self he purchased all of your books. And I asked him, "Can you help us to meet more professors in Lucknow University who also can take?" He said, "They are all debauch."Prabhupada: Yes.Gargamuni: "They are in the bar." He says they all go to the hotel. They get paid high salary. They go to the hotel, they drink and they have prostitute. He told me this.Prabhupada: Just see.Gargamuni: I said, "Just see." And these are so-called big professors.Prabhupada: Yes.Gargamuni: Authors of books. He said, "They will not purchase. But I think these are valuable. Therefore I am purchasing." He told me this.Prabhupada: This is the fact.Gargamuni: So all of these men are nonsense. But people accept their...Prabhupada: So we have no business to print other books of Gosvami literature.Satsvarupa: To cater to them.Prabhupada: That is not required.Gargamuni: They won't follow, anyway.Prabhupada: These two books, Bhagavata and Bhagavad-gita, if they actually read and assimilate, their life will be successful. So we want to organize widespread publicity of these books. They'll be benefited.Satsvarupa: I think one important principle in this individual book-selling will be a science to find out of all the masses people, the likelier people... (end)Evening Conversation -- January 25, 1977, Puri
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