Bali-mardana: One who actually understands the distinction, is it possible that he will still choose to be controlled by the material nature?

Prabhupāda: Yes, he has already chosen. But he's foolish. He does not know. He thinks that "I am now independent of the Supreme Lord." But because he's foolish, he cannot understand that you are not independent. You are being controlled by another agent of God. And because, although he's being controlled, he's thinking, "I am free," therefore he's in illusion. This is called illusion. Illusion means something which is not fact. That is illusion. So this materialist, the so-called scientist, he's thinking, "There is no God. We are independent." So many things, like rascal they are thinking. Foolish rascal, childish. And that is illusion. Ahaṅkāra-vimudhātmā. Therefore this very word is used, vimūḍhātmā: "befooled rascal." Actually, he's being controlled by material nature. So how to get out of this material nature? That is explained, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te: "As soon as that rascal surrenders unto Me, immediately he's out of control." Hare Kṛṣṇa. How these rascals, scientists, philosophers, politicians can refute this arrangement? Is it possible?

(Morning walk--------Hawaii).

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: One may say that if there's no independence, then where is the question of initiative in the material world, taking initiative?

Prabhupāda: Initiative? What is that question? Initiative I understand, but do you think that by taking initiative of independence you become independent, like this, by dancing and fireworks, you become independent? This is initiative, dancing like dogs, (sings) "We are independent, we are independent." (laughter) Does it have any meaning? Dance like a dog, that's all.

(Morning walk------Washington, D.C.).

Madhudviṣa: Prabhupāda, I read in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Volume Three, that when one becomes a liberated soul, he attains perfect freedom, and even sometimes that freedom is on the same level as Kṛṣṇa or even more than Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Madhudviṣa: Can you explain that?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like this Vasudeva, he's more than Kṛṣṇa. Yaśodā, you have seen the picture? Yaśodā is binding Kṛṣṇa.

Madhudviṣa: Oh, the little baby. Yes.

Prabhupāda: Yes, He has become... The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is, I mean to say, afraid, who is fearful by everyone, Yaśodā..., and Kṛṣṇa has become fearful to Yaśodā: "My dear mother, kindly do not bind Me. I shall obey your orders." So Yaśodā has become more than God, more than Kṛṣṇa. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they want to be one with Kṛṣṇa or one with Lord, but our philosophy is to become more than Kṛṣṇa. (laughter) Why one with Kṛṣṇa? More than Kṛṣṇa. And actually He accepts. He makes His devotee more than Kṛṣṇa. Just like Arjuna and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa took the part of a driver, and he was the hero of the fight. Actually, Kṛṣṇa was the hero, but He gave position to His devotee: "You become the hero, I shall become your charioteer." That's all. Don't you see how Arjuna has become more than Kṛṣṇa? Kṛṣṇa says, "Arjuna, you are hesitating to fight, but you know that all these person who have assembled in this battlefield, they are not going back. They are already killed. That is My plan. You simply take the credit that you have killed them. That's all." (laughter) That He wants. Just like a father wants a son to see him more than himself. If a father is an M.A., he wants to see his son M.A., Ph.D., or something more. He's satisfied. He'll not tolerate anybody to become more than him, but he'll tolerate if his son becomes more than him. I'm giving you a crude example. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa, or the Lord, wants to see His devotee more than Himself. That is His pleasure. He takes pleasure in that. So to become a devotee is not ordinary thing. You see. He has got the chance to become more than God. Why equal with God, one with God? No. More than God. Yes. That is our philosophy. Yes.

(Lecture-------Los Angeles).