Even though this matter has been discussed earlier, i think this topic deserves a page/thread of its own.
After discussing this with IDT members, i came to know that the real karta is Krishna or His shakti maya/prakriti, but due to Krishna's illusory power, we the jivatmas instead think that we are the doers.
Now, if its Krishna or His shakti maya/prakriti who's doing everything and if the soul itself isn't doing anything but simply powering the machine called body then isn't it Krishna or his shakti maya/prakriti who is to be blamed for everything?
I mean, maya/prakriti produces pancha-mahabhutas, which in turn produces the mind and false ego.
So in my opinion its the Lord's shakti maya/prakriti who is to be blamed.
But Gayatri ji yesterday explained to me that its the false ego which is the culprit.
My question is, isn't false ego a product of maya/prakriti?
According to Gayatri ji, all the jivatmas in this universe, are equally gifted with mind and false-ego, from sinners like Hitler... to Saints like Haridas Thakura. Now what we do with this mind and false ego is up to us. And so it is our mind and false ego which is to be blamed. Not the Lord or His shakti maya/prakriti.
My question is, why gift us with a tool in the first place that is inclined towards evil? ... And more importantly a tool which is always under the spell of maya/prakriti's 3 gunas. Because of this spell we are always under the delusion of doership and always performing merits and incurring sins ... and therefore trapped in the cycle of reincarnation. In other words, why did Lord create his maya shakti to entrap the jivatmas in the cycle of reincarnation?
Would love to hear your views. Thank you.
Replies
Hare Krishna Prabhu ji!
prabhu ji, can you love someone without free will? if someone is holding a gun on your head and is asking you to love him/her, you might say that you love him/her (to save your life) but that's not real love! Lord Krishna gives us free will so that we can truly love him, but that doesn't mean we misuse it! many do... I know. but we know this matter so atleast we shouldn't misuse our free will
Hare Krishna
Hare Krsna
No, not strange. Because only sinful people are thrown in hell. What's your point ?
Hare Krsna
Hare Krsna
Why did Lord give us this free will and desire in the first place?
To love an serve Krsna.
He could have kept us in Goloka as his servants for all eternity.
He does keep His servants etenally in Spiritual world, even now there are trillions of devotees serving Krsna in SPiritual world. We can also join there. We are in material world because of our desire to Enjoy separately from Krsna. Krsna has NOT given us the desire to enjoy separate from him. We have developed that desire out of our own free will.
Even now we can rectify ourselves and desire to serve Krsna for His enjoyment and Go back to spiritual world for rest of eternity.
Because he gave us free will and desire, we chose to live independently (away from Krishna) in the material world.
No. This is incorrect. We are in material world because of misuse of free will. There is free will for devotees who are in spiritual world. - Prahalad maharaj, Yashoda mayi, Hanuman, Naraa muni all have free will. They are rightly using that free will. Free will is not cause of our independent mentality. MISUSE OF FREE is the causes jiva to suffer in material world
Jiva has to take responsibility of misuse of Free will. There is not point in going round an round about the same thing. We chose to be in material world. We can choose to be in spiritual world. Without free will, jiva will be no different than matter. We have free will and will always have free will. Only question is how we use it.
If the Lord never created the material world or desire or free will in the first place then there would have been perfect harmony.
This is absurd. There is perfect harmony even now. We have chosen to be in chaos. But we can correct ourselves. it is better to focus on that than trying to blame something/everything else.
Hare Krsna
It doesn't matter. Whatever happens around us, the jiva is suffereing due to its own karma.
But is it really us who's doing the karma? No. Its Lord's illusory power maya/prakriti as said in gita ch.30 v13. ... We only falsely think we are doing it. But its actually not us. So why should we suffer?
If the jiva doesn't desire to do evil, then jiva can use the same tool- mind to liberate itself by serving Sri Krsna selflessly.
Again, why did he give us this tool with good and evil tendencies. Why did he give us free will and desire? Lord knows perfectly well, that these things can be used for evil purposes. Yet he gave it to us. Did we ask for them? Even if we did, why would he hand them over to us.
Will a father or mother hand over a knife to his young son? I mean, the same knife can be used for a good purpose (to cut a birthday cake) and also for evil purpose (to stab innocent people). Knowing the good and bad effects of the knife, will the parents still hand it over to his son? ... Please educate me on this matter.
Hare Krsna
who's doing the karma? No. Its Lord's illusory power maya/prakriti as said in gita ch.30 v13. ... We only falsely think we are doing it.
Maya/ Prakriti only facilitates the desire of the soul to enjoy. Without that desire, Prakriti cannot touch the jiva who is completely spiritual.Prahlad Maharaj was tortured like anything by all sort of means, but because he was under the protection of spiritual energy he was unharmed.
But its actually not us. So why should we suffer?
Jiva suffers because it wants to exploit Krsna's energy for selfish purpose.
Knowing the good and bad effects of the knife, will the parents still hand it over to his son? ... Please educate me on this matter.
Father has given it for cutting birthday cake only. But the child is misusing the knife and cutting everything else. Conditioned souls are not innocent.
A murderer is a murderer because he has committed the murder. He has done it because he was willing to do it. Prakriti only facilitates the murerer by guiding him where to find weapon, victim etc. He could have chosen not to do it. No point in blaming the shop owner who sold knife.
Hare Krsna
Prakriti only facilitates the murerer by guiding him where to find weapon, victim etc. He could have chosen not to do it.
Do you think its a good act by maya to guide murderers to weapons and victims? You said he could have chosen not to do it. My question is, how can he choose right from wrong, when he is under the spell of the rajo and tamo gunas of Lord's maya shakti. They are so strong, that only one in a million is able to overcome its illusory effects. Isn't it enough for us to realize that we have been diliberately imprisoned in this samsara by maya.
Why did Lord give us this free will and desire in the first place?
To love an serve Krsna.
That is not a choice, in my humble opinion. That's an expectation.
For example, I'm being told by someone that i have a choice to go either right or left and at the same time i'm expected to turn right, because the left path has been deliberately blocked by someone, so that i am forced to turn right.
Same thing is happening here. We the jivatmas are told that we have a choice to either stay in bhuloka or ascend upwards to Goloka. But at the same time, the material world is created deliberately with all sorts of miseries by the Lord, so that we are forced to flee it and ascend to goloka.
Hare Krsna
Do you think its a good act by maya to guide murderers to weapons and victims?
It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. What matters is - This is how the material nature works. This is how the material world is designed. It works pretty much mechanically for conditioned souls. Conditioned souls have material desires. Material nature fulfills it. Just like gravity acts on everything. Gravity is not responsible for a person who jumps off a tall building. We as humans have intelligence which can be used to understand what this material world is, how it works and what it's purpose is. There is no point whatsoever in asking Why it works the way it does. Krsna has designed it that way.
How can he choose right from wrong, when he is under the spell of the rajo and tamo gunas of Lord's maya shakti ? They are so strong, that only one in a million is able to overcome its illusory effects.
This is the BEST question so far. Lord Sri Krsna has Himself answered this in Srimad Bhagavad Gita.
मामेव ये प्रपद्यन्ते मायामेतां तरन्ति ते ॥ १४ ॥
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te
This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it. ( BG 7.14)
Isn't it enough for us to realize that we have been diliberately imprisoned in this samsara by maya.
Conditioned jiva is imprisoned by it's own enjoying preopensity. No point in blaming material energy. Maya cannot touch a pure soul. We have to purify our consiousness.
That is not a choice, in my humble opinion. That's an expectation.
Whose expectation is it in your opinion ?
The material world is created deliberately with all sorts of miseries by the Lord, so that we are forced to flee it and ascend to goloka.
This understanding is not correct. No amount of suffering can make a jiva to flee and ascend to spiritual world. Infinite conditioned souls have been suffering infinite miseries for infinite amount of time. Yet very rarely does a conditioned soul realize much. There is suffering, there is also enjoyment. Conditioned soul even though suffering stays in material world because of propensity to enjoy separately from Krsna. That desire is very very deep rooted and only by grace of Krsna it can be removed.
Just by suffering for a long time, at best a conditioned soul ( and it is extremely rare) can attain liberation.
Hare Krsna
It doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks. What matters is - This is how the material nature works. This is how the material world is designed.
There is no point whatsoever in asking Why it works the way it does. Krsna has designed it that way.
This is what I've been waiting to hear from you. Finally you admitted Bharat ji that Krishna has designed it this way.
You are willing to accept his creation the way it is (with its many dangers like hell, diseases, famine, flood etc.) But you dare not question the Lord or his devotees on why he has designed it this way. No offence but that's a submissive attitude, which the bhakta yogis have, don't you think Bharat ji?
Again (thanks to Lord's maya shakti) that we fail to use our intellect and instead end up in hell.
It was nice talking to you.
The main problem with tattasva line (where jiva-tattva) is... they have knowledge of brahmam. I am soul. But they dont know Bhakti. Even now in this world it says serve Guru but do we do it ? Fully? So the problem is NOT Krishna its ...
The problem with the material mind is its ego is impure, you are trying to say Krishna is wrong.
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