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In other words, do jivas or jivatmas have an origin? The gita says they are beginingless and always separate from the Lord and they're also HIS spiritual energy.
If the jivas/jivatmas, are his spiritual energy, then doesn't that mean, they emanated or originated from Krishna. I mean energy always emanates from something, like heat energy from the sun etc.
If heat energy can originate from the sun, then shouldn't spiritual energies (jivas) originate from Krishna as well?
How can they be without an origin, when energy always originates / emanates from a source?
Please clear my confusion. Thank you.
To say we the marginal living entities came from 'a clear sheet of consciousness that is expanding and growing with new jivas, ' or from the impersonal dormant characteristic of the Brahmajyoti, is worse than the teachings of Mayavadi philosophy!
Srila Prabhupada rejects that nonsense claim
Note: the Gaudiya math’s Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, Puri maharaja etc cannot accept Srila Prabhupada even when Srila Prabhupada has quoted Chaitanya Mahaprabhu:
KRSNERA ‘NITYA-dasa’: “Every living entity is CONSTITUTIONALLY an ETERNAL SERVANT of Krsna.
The soul was NITYA(eternally) serving Krsna KRSNERA ‘NITYA-dasa in lila(sport) with Krsna: but they OPPOSE Srila Prabhupada by stating BRAHMAJYOTI is the actual origin of the soul. This shows Srila Prabhupada is REALIZED Mahabhagavata whereas Gaudiya matha camp is a bunch of mental speculators.
THIS IS A CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC.
The above words taken from..
ISKCON follows only what Srila Prabhupada ji said and not the God brothers or Gaudiya Math people or their books or their guru's claims.
I don't personally agree to this also. Jiva's origin is not from the brahmajyoti.
PLEASE READ THE PURPORTS UNDER THESE VERSES FOR DETAILED EXPLANATION.
If you are in Rome be a Roman, as simple as that prabhu ji.
Yes, Prabhu ji any doubt? Everyone is from Goloka we are all part and parcel of Krishna.
I accept whatever Srila Prabhupada has told.
all woman in ISKCON are referred as mataji and men as prabhu ji.
SRILA PRABHUPADA ON OUR ORIGINAL POSITION
Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.
"Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down.
Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.
Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
I don't know who is right or wrong. I like the last words of Srila Prabhupada in the above letter. It is better not to waste time on the how we got the disease .....and best is to focus on the how to cure the disease.
I don't like to argue more on this topic. I think I belong to Krishna I am a part of Krishna. I have to understand that much only. And I came from Goloka. When I forgot my Lord. Now suffering in this material world trying hard to remember my relationship with Krishna. Becoz of False ego I become opposite to Krishna now I must get back to Godhead as I actually belong to HIM and I am part of HIM.
It is vaishava aparadh to comment on great archaryas. All are great. It is better not to fight on the what is the cause of the disease and focus more on how to cure the disease.
Fall down has taken place becoz of the misuse of independence and forgetfulness of the jiva his constitutional position.
Chant and Be happy.
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare!!!
Watch this video. This will answer all questions related to the origin of the souls.
"Going Back to Godhead"
Created by EternalReligion.org
I went through that video but didn't find the answer that i am seeking.
The video mostly speaks of, how us jivas forgot our true state (as servitors of Krishna) and are now thrown in this dungeon or prison called material world. But it doesn't answer my question, like how did the spiritual energy (jivas) originated or emanated from Krishna. If we (the jivas or spiritual energy) never originated from Krishna, but always existed eternally, then who created the spiritual energy? Who created the vaikuntha dhamas? The vaikuntha or ayodhya dhamas are also part of the spiritual energy or spiritual universe, right? So how or who created/manifested the spiritual energy. Is it Balarama? If Balarama is responsible for all spiritual manifestation, then isn't it true that we the jivas or spiritual energies came out of Balarama?
You have to watch the video a few times to understand better.
Q How did the spiritual energy (jivas) originate or emanate from Krishna?
A. God (Lord Krishna) is eternal. His energies are also eternal. There is beginning for the jivas, just as there is no beginning for Krishna and His energies.
The basic definition of God is that He is eternal. He and His energies have no beginning.
Q If we (the jivas or spiritual energy) never originated from Krishna, but always existed eternally, then who created the spiritual energy?
A The spiritual energies of Krishna are eternal, there is no beginning. Just as Krishna is eternal, His energies are also eternal.
Q Who created the vaikuntha dhamas?
A The spiritual manifestation is eternal. It has no beginning or creation.
Lord Krishna is the source or origin of everything.
Then what about Balarama bro? I read somewhere in the articles published by iskcon that Balarama is responsible for the chaturvyuha expansions. Balarama is also responsible for the manifestation of Krsnaloka. (I think it was taken from chaitanya charitramrita or brahma samhita.)
Is it correct that Balarama manifested all these things that i said above?
Srila Prabhupada rejects the concept that ”souls are generated from a clear sheet of consciousness”
Also Prabhupada explains their is no origin to the jiva tattva and they fall from Vaikuntha to Maha Vishnu and the He plants them in the material creation, also no jiva tattva ”actually” originates from Balarama or Maha Vishnu rather they go through them.
After some jivas choose to leave Vaikuntha they enter the Body of Maha Vishnu and rests there, it only appears Maha Vishnu created the jivas but actually they only go through Him after leaving Vaikuntha He never creates or generates any jivas.
The jivas were never created or generated by Balarama or Krishna because they have ”always been”, they have always existed only the material world is created.
Sastra says Bhagavad Gita 2.20 – ‘’For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval’’. the word ”unborn” is very clear meaning the jiva was never born.
Also BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
The jivas were never created
Krishna is the maintainer of all existence in Goloka and Vaikuntha and His material ”creation”.
Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, one cannot exist without the other.
The jivas are nothing without Krishna and Krishna has no meaning without the jivas as Srila Prabhupada explains in ”Nectar of Devotion”
Both are equally eternal only in the sense of there is no beginning but Krishna is always the Supreme Lord and maintainer of everything
Both Krishna and the jivas are eternal and always exist together like the sun and the sunrays, one cannot exist without the other.
Thanks Gayatri. So the jivas simply goes through Maha Vishnu. Ok fine. But if we speak about the spiritual universe like krsnaloka or vaikuntha loka, then aren't they manifested by Balarama. I read somewhere in CC or B.Samhita that Balarama is the first expansion of Krishna, and then Balarama manifests (gokula or goloka dhama where krishna resides) Is this true Gayatri?
You know thanks to you... Becoz of you I came to know what is Chatruvyuha and studied deeply goloka chart. Previously I read but overlooked it.
now ur questions made me read more. Thanks !!!!
In CC Adi- lila.. It is given ..
Balarāma, as the chief of the original quadruple forms, is also the original Saṅkarṣaṇa. Balarāma, the first expansion of Kṛṣṇa, expands Himself in five forms: (1) Mahā-saṅkarṣaṇa, (2) Kāraṇodakaśāyī, (3) Garbhodakaśāyī, (4) Kṣīrodakaśāyī, and (5) Śeṣa. These five plenary portions are responsible for both the spiritual and material cosmic manifestations. In these five forms Lord Balarāma assists Lord Kṛṣṇa in His activities. The first four of these forms are responsible for the cosmic manifestations, whereas Śeṣa is responsible for personal service to the Lord. Śeṣa is called Ananta, or unlimited, because He assists the Personality of Godhead in His unlimited expansions by performing an unlimited variety of services. Śrī Balarāma is the servitor Godhead who serves Lord Kṛṣṇa in all affairs of existence and knowledge. Lord Nityānanda Prabhu, who is the same servitor Godhead, Balarāma, performs the same service to Lord Gaurāṅga by constant association.
Lord Balarama is also Lord Sankarshana, the predominator of the creative energy. He creates and is also the shelter of the material and spiritual worlds. By the will of Krishna and the power of the spiritual energy, Lord Balarama creates the spiritual world, which consists of the planet Goloka Vrindavana [the supermost spiritual planet] and the Vaikuntha planets [in the spiritual sky]. (Chaitanya-caritamrita, Madhya-lila, 20.255-6)
Lord Balarama especially assists Lord Krishna in the creation of the material world.
It is given so.....
Thanks for making me study more. May be Lord is making me Study more He wants me to read more about HIS pastimes ..
The gauda vaishnavas say Krishna resides in krsnsloka and at the same time they say, Balarama creates krsnaloka.
So, if balarama creates krsnaloka (the residence of krishna), then where does krishna stay before the creation of krsnaloka? ... If u say krsnaloka is eternal and was never created, then that statement would go against the scriptures, coz the scriptures say that balarama manifests everything via his expansions including krsnaloka.
Its like, how can the city(goloka) and its owner(krishna) exist, when the builder of the city(balarama) comes much later. You get my point sister? :)
When we speak of Vishnu–tattva, Balarama’s presence is most important. It is described in the Bhagavata, in the Brahma Samhita, in the Chaitanya-charitamrita- “krishnas tu bhagavan svayam.” That Krishna is the original form of the absolute truth. “Govindam ädi-puruñaà tam ahaà bhajämi.” He is the ‘Adi-purusa’, the original person. Now when Krishna in the spiritual world, in Goloka Vrindavana, when he wants to enjoy transcendental lila, first he expands himself into a vaibhava-prakasha as Baladeva. Baladeva is the original servitor Godhead. He is Krishna himself appearing to serve Krishna.
Now it is said in the above lines that when Krishna wants to enjoy transcendental leela. Balarama manifests and becomes Goloka Vrindavan himself.
Balrama serves Krishna in many rasas. Shanta, sakhya, dasya rasas and also he can manifest into goloka and many other forms.. Sankarshana, Pradhymna, Anirudhha, Vasudeva. ( Chaturvyuha).
In Sakhya-rasa he appears as Krishna’s friend.
Dasya-rasa, whatever Balarama does is in the mood of the menial servant simply trying to please Sri Krishna, his brother.
In madhurya-rasa conjugal love, Balarama, expands himself as Ananga-manjari. Ananga-manjari who happens to be Radharani’s younger sister, associate of Radharani, and he is constantly playing with Radharani and making all wonderful arrangements for her to meet with Krishna.
We don't know where he resides when he is not in the transcendental leela mood. It is not given we cannot speculate.. Maybe Lord resides in Vaikuntha.( HIS OFFICE). When He is in his office Vaikunta,.. He is served by Sesha or Ananta there also.